'Civilians Don't Give a Rat's Patootee'

After serving 20 years in the Navy as a CTR, I thought I was hot poop since I had a high clearance. I thought I was going to be a hot commodity in the civilian world.

I retired to North Carolina, found a house, and settled down to try and get a job. I pounded the pavement and went to job fairs. Well, I hooked up with the head crypto person with a large company. He was all excited about me. I saw him on Thursday, e-mailed [my] resume Friday, and had an e-mail back saying return this paperwork no later than Monday. They wanted me bad.

I called him up and said why do you want me so bad. He said because of what I did in the Navy. I would be trained, have 2 weeks off and be shipped off to one of the "hot" spots. Where are those hot spots you ask? Iraq and Afghanistan. I was offered $60,000 a year and I would be deployed for 6 months at a time.

So, needless to say I turned the job down. I don't need the money that bad. I was not going to get my head chopped off for $60k and never be home to spend that money. I wanted a place to settle down.

So a friend of mine suggested using a temp agency. After 1 1/2 years of getting temp jobs and learning how to function in the civilan world I got a great job selling bottled water. It's great pay and I sincerely enjoy who I work for and with. But, I still had to learn I cant talk to civilans the way I talked to military.

In the military you tell your troops they best do something and do it now. In the civilan world they will tell you to go jump off a bridge and then you have lost a customer. It took a couple years to transition. So its not easy.

As far a resume: Civilans don't give a rat's patootee that you served with the Airborne command post or all the other stuff. They dont even care about your evals. You have to put things in civilan speak unless you're applying for a civilan position in the same type of job you're leaving in the military. And you may not get called back after an interview no matter how confident you are in your abilities.

You think you just nailed that interview. But sit around and wait for them to call back and you have rent/mortgage due. Be proactive. Talk to others who have been through the transition process, network for a job, go to job fairs and temp agencies. Contrary to what most people believe about temp agencies. They do not charge you to work for them. They charge the company you go to work for. The great thing about a temp agency is you can turn down jobs when you want. And if you dont like a job you tell them and you move on. Those companies are trying you on for size. If they like you, then they may hire you full time. It's also better to have a temp job than none at all.

Take care and good luck to all.

(Submitted by Lola Lewis)

Comments

[Lorraine A Corso]

I've been there done that alright! The truth is it is a lifelong transition.

I spent 22 years in the Navy and I went to Iraq.

I could never be the same person I was before.

[Michael Newton]

I worked for the Government 34 years - Army (30), SSA, Dept of Justice and also 5 years with the civilian work force. You could not have said it better. I now have so many skills, no one will even give me a 2nd look. Luckily, I got back on with Immigrations and work a really nice job

[April]

I have never been in the military, but understand your frustrations as my husband was having similar difficulties. I don't really think that the civilian world doesn't care, I think it's more that the civilian world doesn't understand. I would imagine that you were involved in very specific and/or highly technical jobs while in the service. The military has all sorts of acronyms and abbreviations that quite frankly as civilians we just don't understand. While I don't think that anyone doubts your work ethic or intelligence, I just think civilians aren't really sure what you do or can do. It's almost like applying for a job in Spain but your application is written entirely in English. While your qualifications may be stellar, your reviewer just doesn't understand the language and needs a translator. Since the reviewer already has hundreds of applications and is merely looking for a reason to throw yours at the bottom of the pile, a simple language barrier can be fatal. My husband and I went through several long and laborous drafts of his resume before we were able to present him in a way that civilians could understand and appreciate. I suppose my ignorance was extremely helpful to him because he really had to "dummy down" the explanations for me. But I think this probably helped in the long run. It is an extremely painful and arduous undertaking to transform all of your amazing military experience into something that civilians can appreciate! But once you are able to do so and combine your efforts with prayer, you will be able to get the job of your dreams as my husband has been able to do.
I thank you all for your dedicated service. And I thank God that you are in a mental, physical and emotional state which enables you to seek gainful employment. I pray for you and your families. And know that if God has kept you this far, He will continue to keep you. Best wishes!
April

[Eliyahu]

Another lesson I learned quickly is not to ever include a copy of your DD214 unless it's a gov't job that calls for it. I once made the mistake of including my 214 with my resume when applying for a construction job. The person interviewing me looked at it and told me he couldn't afford to take the chance on hiring me because I had too many medals, and that meant I'm a "risk taker."

[Laura - USAF vet 1985 -1995]

This is great information. I hope somebody takes note of it. I spent only 4 years active and 6 years reserve. But when I finally graduated from college and interviewed for a professional civilian job...I still had transition issues. They did not care about all my military experience, just what I was bringing to them now. They wanted to know if I still was in the reserves and if I was a risk of leaving them high and dry. Civilians care about money. Forecasts, sales, project completion, and MONEY.
How many medals you have, how many recognitions you received, where you deployed, or how many bases/posts you have lived on....so what! How can you contribute to the team and make them MONEY for the company? Stay proud of what you accomplished, but get on the same page as Fortune 500 companies as soon as you can, and you will transition faster. YOU CAN DO IT !

[Jeff Courter]

I have to agree - civilians are looking at the dollars, not the service. (I think that's why they didn't join the military...) You have to remember, we chose to do something they did not choose to do in serving our country; most of our country hasn't made that choice. That doesn't make them all bad people - it just makes us different, someone they can't relate to. I had a small business before I was deployed, but I had to close it when I mobilized, and now I'm looking for a job myself, now that I'm back from OEF. I think many hiring managers are either intimidated or put off by what many of us vets have done, so be prepared to "adapt and overcome" by staying positive and professional - there are still some employers out there that appreciate what we have done. The trick is finding them.

[David - USAF/USAFR]

I agree in part to what you said. However, when I left the Air Force after 9 years Active Duty and transitioned to the Reserves I applied for a job at USPS. The Post Master that interviewed me was quite impressed that I was a veteran. When I asked him why he stated vets have better work ethics, don't call off sick as much, and are more disciplined. Needless to say I was hired. Since then I've moved on to two other federal agencies, all happy to have another vet in their ranks.

[Thomas Carney]

Part of the problem is that (I'm speaking in the high tech sector here), almost all American companies are DEGREE-HAPPY and military job skills are not valued. Part of this is the US government's fault because they push defense contractors to have all engineers and most technicians to have degrees and job skilled be dam*ed.

After 5 years in the Air Force, the ONLY decent job I could get was working for a JAPANESE company, because the Japanese look a lot more at job experience than American companies. We have 5 ex-GIs and one non-GI doing the work of over 20 Japanese degreed engineers because we had more hands-on experience than the degreed engineers.

American companies, especially those even nominally involved with defense work, are forced to consider credentials before experience. It's a mess.

I went back to school to get my EE degree from one of the best engineering schools in the country.... doors are wide open now.

[Tom Farvour]

Great advice. Wish I would have gotten it when I got out. DD214. DO NOT show or give a copy to anyone unless they are familiar with the military (veteran themselves). Most civilians I think are jealous because they were afraid to go in.

[Joe Sanchez]

I have found out that many people interviewing vets do not understand much about the military. Also, many don't care at all if you were in the military. When hired, some bosses are intimidated after reading your DD214 with several medals on it. You will never get ahead in this environment. The thing to do is look for other government jobs and for military people that are hiring. These are the only people that appreciate our patriotism and our work ethic. I have seen it all; Sgt.Viet-Nam vet., college degree..

[Betty Smith]

I can relate to what you are saying 100%. The civilian world could care less about your military accomplishments. I spent four years in the Army and when I arrived back in civilian life, it was a complete disaster. It was after the first Gulf war and we were in the midst of a recession. As a result, I was unemployed for 2 years and became homeless for a time. For many years, I worked several low-waged, low-skilled jobs and it was very hard. After the death of my mother and sister, I was finally able to attend college and receive a bachelor’s degree. By this time I was a disabled veteran and was finally able to obtain federal employment. This happiness was short lived because after three months, I was terminated by my civilian boss because she wanted my position to go to a civilian employee. This is 16 years later and I am now in the midst of suing the Department of Veteran Affairs. It is so sad that I’d waited so many years for federal employment and this happens. I am unemployed again but civilian life has made me very resilient. I believe that if the military had programs to assist soldiers that are leaving the military, my life would have turned out completely different.

[Ben Dover]

Within the military, there is consistent and unfortunate smothering of praise, awards, glorious job titles...many just for puttin' in the time. Okay, you're going to say you earned every damn one of them, you're the exception. But, you know your superiors had to blow smoke up your ass to keep you doing the job, and many of you skated along well...until you really had to "go to war", and many here were just "in the rear with the gear" and never saw action up close and personal. Too many actually believe that piss-ant degree from local on post community colleges equates with a resident degree program, and with the inflated grades it's even more a shame. After 28 1/2 aggregated years in the military, I've seen far too many knuckleheads who couldn't rub two gerunds together (look that one up Leroy), and can give briefings with more ummhhhs and ahhhs than a Down's syndrome child; but, they's a grad-u-it From Lee Harvey Oswald to Tim McVay, everyone gets glowing reviews, so we need to knock off the self-flattering BS. Many of the jobs "you" did have no equivalents in the Civilian world, only the titles appear so vainglorious. So, if you're not the "hot poop" you thought you were, go back and get a real degree, compete and get moving.

Oh yes, Viet vet, Central American vet, OEF vet...and affiliated hot spots around the globe. Not bitter, just a realist.

[Kevin De Vos]

I read all the replies to this article and pulled a lot out of it. I've been in the Army for 24 years now and have learned numerous skills that have prepared me well for the civilian life soon coming for me. for me, I see a lot of success stories, one of my friends who's a SFC retired with a Masters Degree he earned while in the Army, he honed his skills and required civilian certifications to prepare for the job field he wanted. After 3 weeks he landed a job as the Human Resource Director for a large company in our area. He to had to 'sell' his prospective employers on what he will bring to the table if hired as most civilians are unsure as to how we plug in to the civilian work force. He didn't just wait for something to fall in his lap, he networked for months prior in our local Human Resource Managers Association to let people know that he was out there and willing to adapt. I think we all can learn a lot from him, preparing to leave the service is like preparing for combat, we must take it seriously and anticipate the actions of the civilian hiring managers, assume nothing in the process and be aggressive to the point required to get the job we all want and need.

[Neil Foster]

I can not agree that military experience means nothing. It depends highly on your career field. I was a electronics tech i the Air Force. I was given a disability discharge over 20 years ago. I had a job as an aircraft electrician for a manufacturer within 2 weeks.

Three years later, as the program was winding down, I applied for an engineering/training job with another aircraft company. one of the requirements was a Bachelor's Degree, which I did not have at the time. I was brought in for an interview and the supervisor (an Air Force Retiree) was impressed with my background and skills, so I was hired DESPITE HAVING NO DEGREE. It was my military training and experience that got me the job. In fact, almost all of my coworkers were veterans or retired military.

I worked there for 14 years before being laid off after a takeover by another company. At this time, I had so much experience, prospective employers were now expecting a degree. I applied to the VA for vocational rehabilitation and was approved to get my Bachelors Degree. That took some persuading, and a lot of tests, but it can be done.

I finished my degree in 2.5 years. I landed a job shortly thereafter.

It is possible to find a job based on your military experience, but you have to show a prospective employer that your experience means something to them.

If you are a disabled vet and you can't find work in the field that you were trained in, you need to apply for vocational rehabilitation. You will have to be persistent. I applied FOUR times over 15 a 15 year period before I was finally accepted. Once you are accepted, you have to have the drive to FINISH WHAT YOU STARTED. I've seen quite a few vets start the voc rehab program just to drop out after a short time.

NOBODY IS GOING TO DO IT FOR YOU. YOU are the one that has to go out and make it happen.

[Charles]

I had a similar experience 18 years ago when I separated. If you have, or have had secret or top secret clearance and have a Information Systems, Info Security, or Software Development (Java preferred) background, please contact me. I can't promise you anything, but I will promise that I WON'T send you to a "hot spot".

I am a hiring manager and need to staff GOV and DOD projects. A background with Sun hardware and soft is a plus.

Regards,

Charles

[Dave]

What I would get was the "You wasted your time in the military" bit. It was difficult to find so many younger managers not willing to hire me because I was too stupid in serving my country when I could have been carving out a career.
I'm an engineer with a great position now but I still run into people that treat ex military as if they were mentally ill for serving. When they hear that I spent 22 years in uniform, they say,"why?" These are the people I'd never want watching my back.
I'm proud of my time with the USAF and working with some of the most unselfish people in this country. If an employer wants an worker that has some integrity, hire a vet.

[Robert]

You are all correct in saying "go out and make it happen". We vets "can do".Remember that part of your military service. Don't even bother talking to civilians about the military,they are envious and could hurt your progress, keep it shut. Use your world knowledge and drive on.

[David]

When I retired after 22 years in the Army, I looked back over those years and realized, "That wasn't all I could be!" Using my GI Bill and VA benefits, I went back to school, gained/earned the skills/education that has allowed me find a job doing what I really enjoy doing. My personal identity was not, and is not, tied to what I do for a living. My transition to civilian life was fairly stressless. Those that I knew who's identity was tied to their rank have had far more difficulty with their transition. By and large, the civilian world couldn't care less WHAT RANK YOU WERE BACK WHEN! It ALL boils down to what can you actually do now.

[T. Perkins]

I agree with everything that has been said here. However, that is just the begining try being in Europe. And then try retiring form there. I have three good job offer with work immediately but knew if I went back and changed any paper work I would be screwed for sure. So now I sitting here waiting to slide out of here so I can really hit the job market. But I must say military experience is a plus if you paln on working for the Military. But I think that anyone who doe not take advantage of some sort of degree while affiliated with the military is a tottal loser. Reason being is that whatever experience you dont you can supplement with the Degree. Or Both and as noted earlier there are jobs it just depends on what you are looking for and what your goals are in the future. The situation may be you have no kids or they are all grown or you want to make some money so you can open your own business. All of us have not deployed and all of have not been given our just due by the military. I can say this because I used to be a recruiter on active duty myself. Life is going to suck no mater what and the only thing you can do is ensure that you have more options than most. Get that degree, get that training no matter waht it is and tie it into the civilian sector. And another thing you must always be willing to travel. It must also be tied into what your situation is. I plan go make that money while I still can as soon as I can and open up my own business. When I am down I look up because there will always be someone out there worse off than any American.

[T. Perkins]

A DEGREE IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN NO DEGREE. BECAUSE SOMETIMES THERE MAY NOT BE AN X MILITARY INTERVEIWER THERE TO PAT YOU ON THE BACK.

PERKINS

[Brogers]

Poor misable Ben Dover. One of those he complains about. 28 1/2 years of sucking up the benfits and he complains about others. Could not get a real job? Not my attitude, but his.

[Brogers]

T. Perkins another loser that does not want to give Vet respect. Likely, did not serve, does not serve -just consumers and whines about how vets and others unlike TP
keep TP from getting ahead. Whine somemore TP.

[Donna Myers]

I care. So do your brothers and sisters at the VFW and American legion. Please dont feel alone. They just don't get it. MUCH LOVE!