Am I Expecting Too Much From Civilians?

I spent 10 years on active duty, and now at nine years in reserves. I'm running my own business, doing consulting, and working full time...type A, no, not me?

Since separating from AD in 2000, I've had problems getting along in nearly every position I've been in. I blamed it on working for attorneys for the first six or seven years and then landed a supervisory job, which I loved! I felt like I had finally landed where I needed to be, but things soon changed.

I moved on to another job, another state and another start with the same result. 

The same problems I had when I got out are the same issues I find even now. The work ethic, personal integrity and values in the civilian world are just not the same. They don't give a flip that you served your country or continue to do so...that's just a "hardship" while you're away doing drills. 

I'm emotionally exhausted from trying to "lead by example" and to try to hold people accountable while the "cat's away"...it's not my job to do that anymore, but then whose doing it?

My frustration is that I'm being compared side-by-side to people who have no honor and who would never do the same for me as I'm willing to do for them.

Every day I leave my job with an ache in my stomach and a swimming head wondering what the hell I'm doing and why?

I'd quit, but I need that small amount of income to sustain my business until it gets off the ground.

I did ask one of my co-workers whose brother is AD Army. She told me that when something goes amiss, I react and everyone can see my reaction. I stiffen up, I walk a different way and my tone changes. I guess the way I look at it is that if they were doing their jobs, I wouldn't feel so anxious. 

I suppose that comes from knowing that in the military, you are all trained the same way and that the person next to you has your back and you can count on them and while this isn't life or death here in "civi land," I can't even count on people (including our manager) to show up on time for a meeting. 

Any suggestions or are my expecatations just too high?

(Submitted by Laura Simas)

Comments

[Greg P.]

I wish I had and employee like this individual or even worked for someone with such ethics. I will step aside to thank anyone I see in uniform because of what they do for me and my loved ones. With having family in the military I never grew up with that in mind. But at 28, married, and building a career, I find myself unsatisfied with people and the degree of carelessness. I've held different types of jobs from fast food to currently a manager or process techs. They all seem to lack people who work with dignity and a responsible outlook. Too many people only work for themselves and not as a team. Too many people would rather point the finger instead of owning up to a mistake. I work so hard only to find, not all, but a lot of people take short cuts and claim unearned success for their own. So now at 28, I realize the military teaches what the civilian world lacks. Accountability, respect, honor, and so much more which is why I am now turning to start a career in the US military. Hopefully if I ever return to the civilian working world, I won't have to stand equal to a "half ass" type of person. Good luck with your journy and thank you for everything you have done for me.

[Shaun McDonald]

Adding to the commenter above, I too have decided to opt for a career in the Army as an IT Specialist. To me, the civilian world is full of unmotivated individuals who lack discipline and respect. I am starting my military journey at the end of the year and hope to learn all the wonderful things that will allow me to someday be a better person, always putting others before myself.

Thanks again for the article, it was great insight!

[Jeremy]

I have been out for 10 years and I have the same problem. I start as a general employee and get promoted to supervisor or manager because of my work ethic and good habits. Then I have to deal with people that have no work ethic, no respect for the work place, and to me shouldn't even have jobs.

I won't even manage anymore because I can't handle that level of apathy and disrespect.

[Courtney S]

I work with people who have retired from the military and while some are class A, motivated, polite and respectful individuals, some are arrogant and unable to accept that others have skills also.

We work in a corrections and have to work as a cohesive unit to protect ourselves and others. I want to join the military and tend to waver on the Class A but love and respect all of the military's hard work and ability to live right.

By the same token you cannot discount the abilities of non military personnel. There are always lazy disrespectful people without them the driven wouldn't earn the respect, pay and job satisfaction they deserve.

[Michael E]

I've struggled with the same sort of issues. I retired in 2005 after 25+ years on active duty. I've yet to find one thing that is better about a civilian job. People at all levels just seem to be pulling a paycheck with the least amount of effort possible. Leadership at all levels seems feckless and ineffective. Perhaps most disturbing is that no one seems to care!

I think for military folks it's a question of perception. In the military, mediocrity was not tolerated and anything less than 110% was unspeakable. At all levels we were part of something much bigger than ourselves. Sure it was a paycheck and a living but that's not why most of us did it. For me at least, it was far more personal. "Hacking the mish" was an identity, a passion, a lifestyle. The very nature of the job demanded that there was nothing more important in your life. The truth is out here, jobs are just jobs, a means to a paycheck. Odds are, to one degree or another, that's how most of your co-workers look at it. While work ethics vary widely, the truth is that civilians just aren't as totally and personally invested as their military counterparts, and in fact do not need to be.

It took me a while to figure this out but the let down, we all seem to feel is the fact that jobs out here just don't fill as much space in our lives as the military did. They're just jobs out here and that's how it is. It's not a cause, it's not a mission, it's not a family, it's a job, two paychecks a month, nothing personal. It's a tough pill to swallow but all you can really do is the best you can. Don't expect it to be like the military because it never will be and if that's the expectation you walk around disgusted and miserable. If all else fails, look around, there's lots of folks that would settle for a horrible job right now. If you're biggest problem is a job that isn't as rewarding as the military, you have no problems, friend. I count myself blessed and honored to have served for so long and loved it so much. There's folks out there twice my age that have worked at jobs they hated their entire lives.

[Michael B]

I also have the same problem. I have been fired or nearly fired from every job since 2004 when I got out. Served in combat in Iraq and have a hard time putting up with the BS from other people. My PTSD I guess!!!

[Scott]

I've been retired (after 20 years in the Air Force) for just over 9 years now. I was fortunate enough to land a job I enjoy, in IT Support right after I retired in 2000.

Since then, I've seen attitudes/work ethic that run the entire spectrum from worthless to outstanding. Fortunately, the majority have leaned toward outstanding, with only a few exceptions.

I saw my share of poor attitudes while I was active duty as well...granted, they were the exception.

Lot of good comments in prior posts..especially the ones about not expecting those who haven't served in the military to have the same work ethic, focused attitude.

[Marine]

The only thing that will save this country is a military coup. Hopefully, all the prior service folks will assist. With current lack of Political and Business leadership in this country, leaves us ripe for a dictatorship. Maybe a true leader like Washington will hand back control and we can return to a responsible Republic.

[Johanna Waller]

I can identify with all of the comments posted. We military service people have what the civilian community wants-integrity, punctuality, leadership, work ethic, and technical skills, but they don't want to pay us for what we know. I also feel taken advantaged of because of my integrity and work ethic, and my ability to adjust to changes without complaint. I went back to school and got my degree. Now I'm educated, skilled, and have these qualities but still not much change. Persistence and sticking to your personal values is the key. If you're looking for a job, see the veteran representative at your unemployment office. If you haven't filed for disability, go to your local chapter of the Disabled American Veterans and/or Veterans of Modern Warfare. They have veteran services officers that can help you with the process. You may qualfy for services that can help you further your skills and education. Make friends and associate with people that have the same work and personal values as you, and you will find a bit of relief in your frustration. It's not an embarassment to be at an interview and tell the interviewer that your last job didn't work out because your work values were above the employer expectations. Never belittle your military service. We served our country. Millions of Americans cannot say that. God bless America!

[Phil]

"Hacking the Mish"...Michael writes above, I think was, and is the point that drove us all. The Mission was the point of focus that kept us all invested in our duty. We all contributed an important role towards its achievment. It gave us our Sense of Purpose, our Identity and our Pride. We belonged to something greater than ourselves.
The question I am seeing above is how can we bring that with us in our new "Mission"? The Leadership that was most effective where the ones that where able to get us all INVESTED in our role, our duty. The ones that where able to recognize that my contribution was always important and necessary. That is where I learned the fortitude to "Hack the Mish", to work the problem and see my days duty through to best of my ability.
Building this country has taken all kinds of perspectives. Not all of them have the foundation we have been privilaged to have experienced in the Military. That is part of the Freedom we all believe in so much. Now as leaders ourselves, the answer is lies in how effective are we at getting our new troops invested in the mission we have been given by our new employer. I have found that the more commited I am at being effective at that, will elicit a loyal and dedicated response from those around me and under my charge.
Recognize, publicly, your "troops" and demonstrate how important their role is. I think you will find they will listen and follow.

[Rick Duncan]

I have been out of the US Air Force for over 15 years and I too had issues with civilians and their work ethic, or lack thereof. I was fortunate to have 2 former military guys working for me. With their assistance and support, I was able to push my higher work ethic in my office and we thrived in a sea up average behavior. I was suprised when I was given a bonus for doing my job.

I have flourished in my endeavors to be a good supervisor and always try to hire the best person available, and they seem to be prior military. I set the example with my integrity and attitude, but my staff also keeps me on an even keel when things go awry. Stick to your guns, but try to relax just a bit and that ache in your stomach should go away in time.

[kilroy]

I, too, have found that the civilians seem to be unable to comprehend the simplest of command chains, they apparently have no work ethic, and do not care a bit about the quality of their job output.
I _should_ have stayed in the Navy but was too stupid to know that at the time.
Hindsight is 20-20

[Martin Lewis]

Laura, you are suffering from the same problem majority of former military members have. We want, expect, and require perfection. Most civilions don know what that means. I retired from the Marines in 94. My first job as a security supervisior I fired 17 security guards in 30 days. So I know what you are going through. I figured out that the only people who could feel what I'm going through is my family. From there I put every thing else out of my mine. I only associate my self with people who share the same pashions and work ethics I have. In other words, people who care about every thing they do. That gave me some relief. It also gave me direction on how to deal with the negative attitudes and lack of respect. I became more direct with every one I came in contact with. If they can handle it, they could work with and for me, in some situations. If they couldn't, I make it clear, at that time, that they will regret the day they met me if they continue to live by those standards. This way I seem to create the balance I need to be successful and feel a sense of reward for my service. So far, it has worked. Even my managers give me the respect I need. Those who did not, considered me a threath and tried to make me quit. I take that as a challenge and follow through with my plan: make them regreat the day met me.

Maybe some of this can give you some thoughts on how to deal with the change. Remember, there are some people out there with no military background who share the same standards and ethics as you do. You have to find a way to seperate them from pack and lean on them in your time of need. They will be the ones who will have your back.

Good luck Laure. I have faith that you will find your way.

[Valerie Blanchard]

You are all spot on. I have struggled for years with this type of thing. There is nothing wrong with holding ones self to high standards. Find the stellar in the herd and associate with them. And create or find a hobby or volunteering opportunity that fulfills you.

Veterans are of a totally different world and that world helped to craft who we now are. No civilian can understand, "Yes sir, no sir, no excuse sir!" So, we deal with it as best we can.

Hang in there Laura.

Regards

[T.J.]

I too have faced the same problems of working with pride in the civi world. Now I find myself unemployed due the economy and my union. My supervisor would rather have me still working but due to the union and the contract, people who would rather sit on their butt and do nothing during their shift are still working and I'm the one out of a job looking for a job. When are these employers going to learn that a military person is what they need to help these companies make the money they want and get this economy back on track!

[Lori Thompson]

Holding on to high standards does not put food on the table. Many of us have had to deal with substandard conditions (the lack of leadership, ethics, and respect)because we have had no choice. We (military) need to take our experience/education and values into our schools. This is the opportunity that we will find the most rewarding and the place where we can do the most good. We are capable of teaching and inspiring the leaders of tomorrow.

[Scott]

Many of us have had the same issues. I struggled for years to find a job where I fit in and people appreciated my high expectations and ability to motivate peers. I painfully learned to not expect anything from anyone to include basic common decency and to not trust anyone until that trust is earned. All I can say is that those civilians that are intimidated by our management skills, drive and commitment should be ignored. Your work product and your teamwork will speak loud enough that you will not need to tell others how good you are. Keep looking for the right fit and always take care of those that take care of you. You should be proud of what you've done for the country but don't expect the same from others. Apathy and ignorance are rampant but knowing that makes it easier to take the chip off our shoulders and rise above the fray of office politics and let our work do the talking.

[Kim]

I've been out of the military for 17 years and the same goes for me also. Just the lack of carelessness and disregard is the same no matter where you go. It's unfortunate and only getting worse. If this keeps up, this country will be so down in the tubes, it'll be dispicable. I also find that it's not just at work, but while being out and about. Living in central New Jersey has to be one of the worst places to deal with people. Everyone is rude and if you don't have an attitude and a keen eye, they'll take advantage of you as fast as they can. I really have to get out of this state. It's just too depressing. Oh well, only 25 more years till retirement, hahaha.

[S Rose]

No, you are not expecting too much, Laura. I agree; why aren't people more proud of the jobs they do - or at least act like they are. I am not a military member but a military (veteran's) spouse. My husband served a total of 27 years in the military and retired this summer. Even though I am technically considered a "civilian," I am a bit disenchanted with the civilian world as well and sometimes miss military life, even with all the moves and deployments. After retirement, my husband decided to move back to the tiny town he grew up in and teach at the local middle and high schools. While you are having a hard time finding civilians with decent work ethics, he is having a hard time with their children in the classrooms. And as much as my husband is trying to inspire the "leaders of tomorrow," they are still being raised by those parents with the pathetic work ethics.

[Doc Shogren]

You know dude, cream rises to the top. I won't take a management position either because of the apathy. I use the discipline I learned during 13 years on active duty in the Navy. I channel it into new and innovative ways, such as getting to work 1 hour early to work out. I'm wide awake and ready to rock-n-roll when the flag goes up. Alot of the silly-villians want their coffee break before working. I look heads and shoulders above the crowd. I look for ways to expand my job to get the work out in a more timely manner, which makes me look good.

[Jeremy]

I think this discussion alone is an argument for mandatory national service. Bring up the population to a certain level.

[Jim]

I don't know about the other services, but in the Marine Corps we had an expression that "Civilians Su*k". They do. The problem is not with you - PTSD or whatever, the problem IS with them. Trouble is, "they" run the place, and you're going to take the heat for having a work ethic and sense of duty. I retired after 30 years, and I've been down the same road too. Good luck and hang in there. - Sergeant Major

[Kenny]

As we all have written we can identify with Laura; I retired after 20 years of combat honorable naval service in 2005 as a Chief Petty Officer (E-7). I discovered people are people the only differences I see is some of us had the honor and sometimes circumstances to serve in the military. We discovered even while in people from different branches were different. Well have to say we are the different ones now. Some civilians can not comprehend the term " O Dark Thirty" or geedunk or foot pounder. How it is to complete a mission or task in civilian terms from start to finish. Standing port or starboard watches. Or to be shot at or almost dying in combat. So we have to adjust it is a shame but true, we have to identify with what civilians know, kids, extended benefits, their breaks and we as veterans have to adapt. I know, I left the service with 2 degrees, all done on my off time which was few and far in between with 4 ships served on and 2 shore duty tours, and thought I was all prepared. Well to my shock I was not, I had to deal with "isms", sterotyping of us military types. Too rigid, conservative, not willing to bend. I not only have worked 3 jobs since 2005 I count myself as one of the "your position has been eliminated" and unemployed. I also am a resident of Canada and the Canadians are not sympathic to their own military so where has that left me? An American living and trying to work in Canada!?!?! I worked for 18 months at my last job for an electro-mechanical manufacturer as the technical support/service manager and was from day 1 labeled the American and clashed with the V.P.s of manufacturing and Sales. I pretty much was put on an island by myself and when I succeeded despite obstacles and was generating revenue for the company with gross revenue approaching 1 million dollars with a department of 7 inexperienced technicians/support engineers well I was preceived as a threat to the corporate status quo. I did not suck up or kiss rear just saw a mission and with the people I worked with treated them with professional curtesey well the higher ups did not like that!! They liked the fact money was being made but the threat of a Yankee ex-military was too much and even though it is an American owned company I was let go with the excuse of the recession and wanting to go another direction.

Well in closing be proud of who and what we represent just be prepared to be looked upon differently and at times treated differently and as always keep up the fight and hard work we were trained to do!!

[Nate]

Wow! My experiences have been very similar as well. The service-before-self attitude is definitely a quality that has stuck with me. Unfortunately, the majority of the peope around us in the civilian world still have that "self-first" attitude that tends to pollute everything around us. With that said, I am so proud to have had the opportunity to serve in an environment primarily ruled by integrity and the common knowledge that we can do great things when we come to terms with our own limitations and bring our strengths together as a team.

[Joe]

I have been out since 1995 after serving one enlistment in the Army. I regret the decision to get out. The Army promoted leadership. Civilian corporations discourage it. I have moved from one company to another since then in management positions. Everyone is expected to smile at all times and never get upset. Decisions are made by consensus. Consensus just means that decisions will be made by the average, not the best. Promotions are based on group decisions of management teams, with the promotions going to those who have offended the individuals making the group decision the least. I miss the military way of having the decision made by a strong leader with a vision vs. a group trying to take on the least responsibility.

[Bruce Triplett]

Interesting 'discussion'. I did not see much counterpoint, so thought I'd throw my 2 cents in the mix; I was a Navy NUC ET1(SS) and could not believe the incompetence of the majority of my fellow shipmates. I also do not like the level of laziness and outright lack of responsibility on the part of the civilian workforce, but see the same levels mirrored in much of the administrative positions of the military also. I agree that people are people. Our current citizenry lacks the basic qualification to be 'free'. Freedom requires peaple to accept the responsibility inherent in their citizenship. That is now gone. I blame it on the takeover of the school system and the 'new Deal' more than 70 years ago. Welcome to Hope and Change.

[anonymous]

It's been only a couple of years since I got out of the military. I work for a class 1 railroad as a train dispatcher. I can definitely relate to all the comments above. I've never heard people complain so much in my life. These people complain about every little thing. I miss being around military people. Really considering going back in.

[Donna]

I am a therapist who works closely with military personnell who are dealing with a multitude of issues after returning from a war zone or still in the military. An overriding theme is their disallusionment over how civilians (usually their wives/husbands or girlfriends/boyfriends or co-workers) react to them or how they behave in the relationships. It certainly is difficult to couple regimentation and complete trust, via that regimentation, with liberty in it's fullest sense. Civilians live by the Constitution of the United States, which is much more liberal than the code of conduct our military lives by. When your life depends upon complete adherence to the "rules", it is a life-changing experience to find that most of the people you co-exist with do not live by those same rules or that same code of conduct. It does not mean those people are somehow "less competent" or "less qualified" or have less integrity than our service men and women. It means they live by a more liberal, more independent set of rules and expectations. In full, the civilians live by the set of laws and rules our brave men and women protect - sometimes with their lives.

[anonymous]

I had been working a job I enjoyed but with people that made it clear to me why a huge number of people in their sector were unemployed. My boss called me into his office and asked me if I would be willing to be an Assistant Team Lead. This was my first management position. I left the Army as an E-4. He is a former Air Force officer. I looked him in the eye and told him, "You know my tolerance for people without a work ethic and that don't understand the concept of doing something right the first time is limited, right?" He said, yes, he understood but please be easy on them. That had to be the most frustrating thing. He supported me but still, I don't think I ever want to manage civilians again. (Especially if I ended up trying with a civilian boss.)

[bmw_speeder]

Certainly appreciate Laura bringing this up, and Donna for putting a professional's spin on things. One thing I noticed is the absence of officers commenting, unless they are incognito. My own story mirrors the theme. Funny how the boss you have makes all the difference! Most want to fulfill their dreams of becoming "numero uno", yet every now and then you'll find that special boss who can bring out the very best in you. Unfotunately they are the exception and not the norm. What was the difference between my last two positions? The relationship I had with the leader to whom I responded. In the most recent case my boss was the kind of guy who told completely different stories to each group of people he spoke with, purposely creating confusion in order to make himself look good by "resolving crisis". In my job previous to that my boss was the VP who gave me carte blanche and backed me up as promised. One job was a resounding success, and the other a very unpleasant experience overall. I've heard that people don't leave companies, they leave leaders. I believe that's as much true for military and/or government work as it is for corporate. In my opinion, our success in adapting to civilian life will boil down to our ability to see beyond the "programming" we received during our tours of duty (I was in for 6 years) and get the bigger picture. This doesn't mean that we ignore the fundamentals we gained however. I'm still enjoying my self sufficiency and a strong sense of personal responsibility & exceptional discipline to get things done, even after being out for 18 years. Most folks will never get this preparation for the business world. So on that note - JOB: love it or hate it, if you got it keep it. They don't seem to be making many of them these days. Just suck it up and drive on, like getting pulled for parade duty for the #th weekend in a row.

[pault962]

To each and all of you that have severed in the military, I personally thank you for your comments. I also have and still is having problems with the standards of these cilivians and how they operate on their jobs.As they call us " A threat to the workforce" These types of people like to play mind games also, to undermind your personal working standards of trying to suck up to the company, even when I know that the company is doing everyone unfairly. My working standards reflect me and me only, since there's no working standards within the company peers. There has been many days where I could just have have my way with a lot of childish suppose to be grown up's, that it would only have cost me my job and my life in the long run. I've served in the Army from 1981 to 1991 for 10 years after the Desert Storm Conflict. I tried to return back in but Bush Sr. was cutting down all of our military forces at that time, so I went to the National Guards for another 11 years to retire from there as a E-6.Even the guard treated me as a know it all because I had the most recent updated on the rules and regulations of what was being taught there. They used me for everything and I out shined everyone, but didn't received anything but more responsibilities.Towards my retirement they offered me E-7 since everyone was getting out, but I had enough of these John boys groups and got out asap. Most of the comments stand so very true that the majority just don't care. It's about a pay check, fame,havng being someone special to the boss as being something that they are not. Instead of working together in unity they rather you to do it for them while they collect and do barely nothing. No matter where I go and work for it's the same all over so far. And yes Laura my expressions shows right through me too without having to say anything to anyone. I'm hanging on by a thread now and trying to keep my faith in the Lord for my sfe keeping of not hurting anyone becaus of their stupid un-caring ways. It might be PTDS from Desert Storm or both, but I have to keep busy doing something, improving, helping those in need of help ( which I have to watch out for those who take advantage of your help also).I wish I knew of a employment that has standards like the military had and a since of purpose. I'm curently laid off from this BIG COMPANY that sponsored the super bowl 2 years in a row but laid everyone off but a few until the economy picks back up (Bridgestone Tire Plant).Now that I know that I'm not along it doe take a little off my shoulders but it doesn't help me knowing that we will always be looked at as being crazy, too stricted, gun-ho, you get the picture. I just have standards which has always worked for me as it has been taught to me by the military straight from high school.

[Soars55]

My last military job was chief of staff for a mid-sized agency of about 2,000 people in several different locations. Some of the support we provided was time critical in this and prior jobs. If you missed the deadline vital information might not be available to those who really needed it. The analogy of the train leaving the station is apt – if the job wasn’t done and the train pulled out you couldn’t run to catch up. With people's lives on the line it tends to sharpen the sense of obligation to get the job done. I found I had to constantly remind myself, once retired, that lives didn't depend on what I was doing.

Certainly agree with many of the comments above -- it's a different ethic for the most part. Loyalty up and down, mutual respect, hard work and team work are all concepts military members learn from day one. These seem to be missing in much of the civilian world. Another comment -- the boss is crucial -- is also critical in my experience. A good boss is a blessing. An incompetent or mean one is a curse.

You have to live with yourself, but you have to operate in the world as it is.

[greenhat]

First - Thank you to all of you who have served our country! Our oath was to "protect and defend our nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic" and you have done this with honor, discipline and unwaivering drive befitting the service of the Spartans.

Second - As a veteran of over 25 yrs, I faced the same experiences other poster have clearly and accurately described. About 7 years into retirement, a good friend explained to me that civilian life is what it is and that I should view it as the conditions/environment surrounding the mission - not the mission itself.

Most of my time in was in the Middle East. We trained Arabs, Africans, Southwest Asians - but were frequent accused by regular Army or Foreign Service people that we were not training them to the US standard. Our response? They are not in the American Army, we are training them to work in their Army. They don't have the background, equipment, support or culture (thankfully) that America has. So US training standards wouldn't work for them in their environment. However, we could improve their performance and capabilities to some degree - and that was the mission - not to make them experts, just more effective.

Third - Apply this view to working with civilians. This was my realization - that I was working with people whose whole approach to life was "foreign" to mine. You don't have my experience have been in this same situation of working with "foreign" personnel.

Fourth - Recognize that, despite our honest, well intentioned best efforts and desires, those civilian poges will never meet the US military standard. They are simply the conditions/environment that surrounds your mission. Your mission is to do your job to the best of you ability and ensure that all your actions on this mission compliment the successful completion of that mission. Any dirt-bag co worker or supervisor is just another river crossing on the mission. That jerk of a boss is just another detached higher HQ telling you to do something stupid because they are not on the ground doing the mission. You used tact and tactics to work around these environmental obstacles and hinderances then, you can do it now

Finally - Just remember why you were successful in the military - it was your ability to work around situation, take and apply theory to actual events, display character and discipline so you didn't have to be supervised all the time. You can do this. You have done it before.

I have a 12 minute commute home from my current job. Most days as I drive home, I have to laugh about the pompous jerks I've dealt with today. The reason I laugh - those jerks think they are the professionals.....just consider the source of their information!!

[Rick]

Ditto Jeremy's comment. The civ workplace is gross. Ramp it up in spades and you can understand our current economic situation. Starting you own business in this economic climate is very hard. Tough, tough, tough, all of it.

[Tom R.]

The civilian attitude described is everywhere in our country. I think if the Draft was reinstituted and everyone had to server their country for at least two years, our nation would be the better for it.

[David A.]

I have been wanting to right the same thing for 15 years now.....i am saddened yet happy to hear such a story because for a while i wondered if it was just me! Well i have found that i pick battles to fight but i don't back down from the really bad employees that act like that. I have had many dislike me because of it yet i have had many thank me for fixing issues within my department(s) because of my integrity! Keep up the good work...

[C. White]

I left the Navy 26 years ago, and not a week goes by that I don't have the differences in discipline and motivation between civilians and service members brought into clear focus by my co-workers. I think about it all the time.

I thought civilian life would be more financially rewarding, and that turned out to be true, but if I could have a word with that younger me I'd tell him that money isn't everything, and sometimes intangible things can be worth a very great deal.

To everyone who has posted -- thank you for your service, and your comments.

[TravlinSam]

First of all...this is to "Green Hat"...you are spot on.

I served 11 years in the USAF and it wasn't for the money...I don't think any of the others around would say they were there for the money either. Reasons for serving are many...but for those who stayed on longer than their initial term, I am pretty sure that they all recognized that what you have with the military is a team of caring and dedicated professionals that want to get the job done...and done right.

Now let's move on to the civilian world. Fortunately, a lot of the people I work with are prior service...you can usually tell if someone served...there's a level of respect for positions above and below them that the average citizen who never served does NOT have. Maybe it's my age, but it seems like those younger than me that have NOT served are even worse then their elders that have NOT served. Yes...there are exceptions, but as a whole, I believe prior service employees are a valuable asset to any employer and deserve more recognition for their past and present dedication to getting the job done.

[Russell Busicchia]

You really can't change your working environment. However, I'd look for another job, but with a company that hires prior service members. My company hires many ex soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines. Because I work with many prior service members there is a familiarity for me now. You have to "make me an offer I couldn't refuse" to leave now. Finding the right work environment isn't easy to find. My first employer thought their managers were slaves and was surprised when I quite. Some employers just don't get what it means to serve your country. Hope everything goes well for you.

[Keith]

I am really taken by surprise by all this. I thought that this was just was some kind of personal failing on my part, and didn't associate it with my military service - now 20 years ago. Now I see I got my expectations about people from the military.

I am very much into pursuing the mission. I am disgusted by these people around me who hold that idea in complete contempt. How can anyone consider themselves ethical people when they sneer at anyone who suggests that they spend 40 hours a week pursuing the team's goals in return for that paycheck?

It isn't hard to be disillusioned when even your CEO - the person who is supposed be the the absolute steward of that mission - just laughs at the very idea that pursuit of the mission is what we owe each other - and each others families.

Civillians have no concept of mission, honor, work ethic or responsibility. That doesn't surprise me. What I just can't believe is that they hold it against you if YOU have them.

People wonder why our country is in a rapid decline. I don't. Where dishonesty gets you power, and work gets you nothing, the future will be a dark place for everyone.

[Lawrence Guarnero]

Thank-you for your service. I too have experienced the same issues. 27 years of military service, fired from two jobs I chalk it up to culture shock. My current job is union working for USPS. As a craft employee (Clerk) I wanted to go into management. Did not really like what I saw on that front and thought naively, that I could make a difference. How wrong I was. The people skills I brought from my military experience with high standards and professional attitude were not accepted by the work force I supervised. Management eats their own, no professional development, lack of support and the blame game. High stress, and unhappiness, returned to my union craft job accepting and hoping my professionalism, dedication and performance will be recognized as contributing to organizational goals. Miss the Navy, people I had the PRIVELAGE to lead and co-workers I considered family.

[Steve]

Well, I guesss I had the opposite experience. When I was in the Army, I found many people - including and especially the "lifers" - to be somewhat lazy people who would not do well in the competitve private sector. Because you can't really get fired in the military, there is actually a lot of mediocrity. At least, that's what I saw all around me.

Now that I'm in the private sector, the quality of people I work with tends to be higher than when I was in the military. My current colleagues know they can and will lose their jobs if they don't perform. And so, they do.

I know this doesn't pass the test of "political correctness" to say all of this, but it really is my experience.

[Frank]

While I can understand the frustration of dealing with incompetent/unmotivated people, I'm a little concerned about the nearly universal "us vs. them" attitude I see here.

I was both enlisted and officer (in the U.S. Coast Guard, for whatever that's worth here - the CG generally getting more jokes than respect from the other services), and I've been in the civilian workforce since 1993.

While I did see full-blown idiots while in service and I've seen my share in the civilian world, this general feeling of "we're better than them and they just can't help it, poor civilians" isn't very helpful at all. To separate and label an entire class of people based on ... what, training? education? lack of character? isn't much different from what Euopean settlers and missionaries did to native cultures in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Perhaps the best I can offer is to suggest that you'll have to deal with unmotivated people in all walks of life. You will have to do your best to keep your own standards high. It isn't easy, but even people who have never served in the military can have high standards without the training and esprit de corps that many have been a part of. Keep an eye out for these people and cultivate them.

Finally, a good point was made that a civilan job is very different from a military mission. That can be a huge change, and its easy to blame the job and the people. It's not anyone's fault. Maybe you can look back to your first day at boot camp, or officer school.

I can agree with many of the frustrations here. However, realize that high-performers have had to deal with similar problems all their lives. If you want to blame civilians and complain about how they are shiftless and lazy and unmotivated and worthless, then you will only see people that way. Not a great way to live, in my humble opinion.

[Mark H]

Excellent comments from greenhat, Steve, and Frank. I'm a former Navy reactor operator who left the service in 1982 (and took advantage of the GI Bill to get my engineering degree). Although it's been a long time, I still remember the discipline and high standards of shipmates who were in technical billets, and the not-so-high standards of people in non-technical billets.

I've found the same thing in civilian life.

Fortunately for me, I found a position in a company that does a lot of work in the nuclear field. The success of this company has been due in large part to employees who have the discipline and drive I was used to in the Navy. That being said, we have our share of sub-standard workers, mostly in non-technical positions.

I used to be annoyed that these people put out so little effort, but I eventually realized two things: 1) my efforts really stand out compared to these people (even when I don't try too hard), and 2) by maintaining my high standards, the company has learned that they should be able to expect more from the less-motivated.

My advice to Laura: Hire people with the same high standards as you (all the better if that means ex-military), and stand by for more work than you can handle as your clients learn that YOUR company provides the best service!

[dr]

omg sooooooooo true!!!!!!
This is the best post Ive ever read!!!!!! Ive had the same issues, I just cant deal w/ the lazy liying unethical no moral scum in corporate Am. The worst of the worst get promoted, I assume because of the azz they kiss, and like minded scum help eachother!
Wyeth
Watson
Mars
Accenture
Aventis etc.....

[dr]

Laura, its NOT you its them, find a niche where u can work w/ the least human interaction, non Military civs suk! We know the truth!

[Sonya]

Laura, no you are not expecting too much and I totally understand how you feel. I have moved from state to state and I I have been going through the same thing since I departed the service approximately 10 years ago. I thought something was wrong with me and not everyone else until I read your article. Civilian employees definitely do not have your back or integrity, nor do managers appreciate honest and hard working people. The less civilians do, the more they are rewarded and the faster they are promoted. It is ridiculous. I want to go back into a government position badly.
Thank you for sharing your feelings.

[Genise]

Thanks for your article--it let me know that I am not the only one having some of the same issues. I spent 13 years in the military and am now on the civilian side of the house. I thought the military had changed after being away from it for 13 years. As a current DoD civilian, I to find that civilians lack good character, integrity, and common decency. It is sad that even prior military personnel forget the values taught and integrity learned through professional development and esprit de corps. However, I realize that most people are a product of the way they were raised while others respond and grow based on life experiences. Do not allow the negativity and indecency of those around you change the person that you have become because the world needs more people like you. Everyday continue striving to be the best person you can be because we are a small number, they are a dime a dozen!!

[DuncaninFL]

Laura you are spot on with your observations. I retired in '82 as a Navy Chief ET after 21 years. I then moved on to a 22 year career as a Civil Service Engineering Tech. I noticed the same 50% or so level of incompetance everywhere I worked. You just have to find the right fit. It is hard. We could probably reverse this if all children were required to attend military type schooling until they were 21. Duncan

[WKM]

I did retire from the Navy five years ago and noticed the same thing you did. It just wasn't the same. I couldn't even get used to the "call in sick" routine. Things have changed now and I'm back with the DON on a federal position and being the only civilian in my department. It seems like just another duty station and I get to function in a patial military manner while enjoying the best of both worlds. My suggestion is; If you really miss the military routine, see about getting a DOD job like the one I have. You get to work with people in common who recognize your service, at the same time serve as some kind of a mentor and most of all - I get to tell sea stories!